To kill a Mocking Bird.

Posted by Sunman^ at 17:05, 2/2/2005

A Governing body is it feasible or just plain fiction?

After obtaining some positive feedback with regards my last column, I thought I would try my hand at another.
In no way do I want to put the infamous del` through another one of my dreary eyed opening paragraphs, as I have felt his wrath once and do not wish too on a second occasion. :D So without further ado it’s onto the matter at hand.

I know a lot of comments are put forward mostly containing the authors beliefs to what is directly hindering the scene today, but do we ever see a solution to the proposed argument?

I’d like to talk about a governing body and how it may/may not be introduced as a coherent entity. Just like the last column, these views are my own and in now way do I expect you gullible people to indiscreetly start worshiping them :)

Why have a body.
Well simply put why not? I mean the benefits are there to be reeked. One body that makes the most important decisions the uk scene has to offer. No more rants on sites, no more tarnished reputations. If you have a problem you go directly to the body, which in turn will take note of your claim and review it. Above processing the claim and looking at the evidence the body’s rule is final. If you are not satisfied with the body’s decision then you can take it to an appeals commission who in turn will have a look at it and decide if an appeal is to be permitted. If an appeal is granted, as new evidence has been obtained since or some malarkey which has been overlooked has come up, then the body will have a look once again. On this ultimate decision the body’s finding is final.

How would we decide who gets on the commission?
Simply put, run a voting system on ukt.

Now some imminent questions spring to mind no doubt.
Who would take the time out of their busy schedule to do such a tedious task?
But I put it to you would it really be tedious?
Say you have a total of 5 impartial, well respected members in the uk scene whose job it is to review the evidence and on completion of said data submit it to a higher body in the form of a ‘judge’ so to speak, who then casts judgement on the ‘player’, ‘clan’ or ‘game’ at hand.

Then you have an appeals commission made up once again of say the same type of structure mentioned in the above paragraph. 5 more well respected, unbiased admins and 1 judge overlooking them all.

However, what’s in it for us the body?
Okay this is the biggest question at hand; I know most people wouldn’t have the time or dedication for this task at hand, not to mention do it on a ‘good Samaritan’ basis. So the only logical solution I could come up with was to make the many leagues the uk has to offer pay-to-play.
I know there is a lot of controversy on the subject as many teams feel
“what is the point in paying if numerous amounts of teams will cheat to get one over on us?”

But with this system in place, any suspicious results proven to be void of legitimate play would be over turned and the team and player cheating banned from that said league for good.

So, you would need to give the body some revenue mostly generated by say all online uk pay-to-pay leagues in order to entice them into doing a task as such.

Now I am not senile. (that remains to be seen) I know it is not an easy task at hand, Nor do I expect the above to be implemented into public and or pcw play. However, in a league format, I for one strongly believe that the above is a necessity.

In order for this to work, you would need 2 admins on each league game, one watching each team, updated anti-cheat software (all be it not 100% secure) but no harm whatsoever having it, cd springs to mind, and last but not least each player recording POV demos.

Any player(S) accused of being suspect and not having recorded a pov demo to prove otherwise will be putting his team in jeopardy, in the way of penalty points and or default loss in the previous obtained victory.

Think about this for one second, no teams b***hing repeatedly in the public eye for the world to see, asking for post matches to be turned over, instead it’s handled professionally and swiftly, It would propel the scene to a level never before attained in terms of professionalism and hopefully would catch on and stop the constant influx of cheats with regards to online league play.

Like I said just an Idea I’ve been dwelling on over the past week or so, something that could help the scene or something that could simply just trod along unnoticed like this column :)
I know I have not touched on every aspect, but I don’t want to drag this on any more. I have left so much out but with a bit of work it could be talked upon and maybe even compiled as a feasible project.

By the way I’d be happy to help in any way plausible with regards to the above implementation or something along the lines of it.

Good day to you all. SunZzZz

Currently rated 4.58 after 26 ratings.
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Comments

Undone^
ForsakeN
11:25 3/2/2005
i have a body

nice thoughts [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
SuzieFish
12:04 3/2/2005
Nice thoughts Sun. But would be hard to get everyone to agree with all the kiddies about.
An easier way to eradicate cheats would be for everyone to unite and turn on valve and stop accepting their p*** poor programming. They have made so much money of CS and they still cant provide us with a cheat proof game. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Divine
12:10 3/2/2005
You successfully cured my insomnia! Congratulations!

Nice thoughts, but would never work for sooooo many reasons. Biased/uncaring/bribed admins for one reason, quality of hacks and indeed the quality of the hackers vastly improving (its one thing to use a hack, and another to use a hack repeatedly and not get caught) being another.

And, to be honest, paying to play a league, if there was the chance of winning money, paying £5-£20 per season of cs (if i was this way inclined) even with an admin watching my pov would not stop me from hacking.

There are more reasons (this ideas been flying around for ages), but it would take me ages to write em out.

plus im boring myself. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Del`
Sniper's Alley
12:53 3/2/2005
It sounds a good idea to be honest, though I think it would be very hard to realise.

The governing body would have to hold powers over all the top league's entry systems to make it worthwhile.

A more sensible solution than managing cheats directly would be for them to leave that up to the leagues and community member's evidence, as it is done now, but to use this info to keep a record on which clans and players are considered dodgy, and to have them excluded from leagues and competitions. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
fezemoN
13:14 3/2/2005
its a computer game. the end. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Gingerfish
Point Five-O
13:37 3/2/2005
man this column is so original! [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
lukuS
13:51 3/2/2005
And what, perchance, is wrong with computer games?

Chess is just a board game :) [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
InvizioN
13:57 3/2/2005
tbh i thought that was what steambans was supposed to accomplish? [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
InvizioN
13:59 3/2/2005
hmm i didnt finish my last comment lol. neway, i thought that was steambans was for? to look at "suspect" demo's make a final decision and a leagues action was based on steamban's? however if there is going to be a "body" it needs to be totally impartial in its decision and people that know wtf they are talking about.

i havnt read all the way through as i cba, so im just commenting in bits ive read

$0.02 [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
muffin
The Incarnate
14:09 3/2/2005
Before we get anything like that we need a league like CAL. With the top 10 or so UK clans battling out each week. Then you can obviously have lower divisions. Also if you charged a clan say 10 quid, that would be 100 quid prize money every two and half months. Not amazing granted but would be more of an incentive to play. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Weebull
14:12 3/2/2005
A worldwide governing body would be great for taking the power away from the likes of the CPL. Unfortunately however, I could see it being easily open to bribes, which would make it somewhat worthless. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
ColdAsIce
ImaGine
16:54 3/2/2005
The admins would be biased imo. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
georgeda
16:55 3/2/2005
charging for leagues etc could be a double edged sword, there are 3 points to consider:

1. less cheats - people dont want to get caught and lose their money they spent on the team.

2. possible more pressure for people to perform and consequentially to cheat to give their team the edge to get the cash prize.

3. a team of cheats, just out to win and get the cash, careuflly using esp to decide the best plan of attact (cough not mentioning any names, i'm sure people know who i'm refering to :)

just a thought.

also, i'd gladly be a judge :) [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
tiz
17:29 3/2/2005
If you even think of killing a bird, ill have the RSPCA on your ass so fast you'll wish you'd never been born!!! [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
icewilly
17:32 3/2/2005
r ye havin a laff lakkk [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Sunman^
17:37 3/2/2005
Geo, I'd suppose you would be a good candidate as we would need people with a vast wealth of experience with regards to the cheating/cfg scene. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
tiz
17:47 3/2/2005
He offered a hand, and you shot him down. A good start to an amicably befitting relationship Sunman^. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Sunman^
17:58 3/2/2005
I was being genuine; it’s well known in this world that most hackers with regards to computers in their early teens turn security analysts for companies when they mature. Why not in games?

Tiz, you don’t really know me so please in future don’t jump in by saying I am being sarcastic.

Btw! this is in no way a dig at you, just clearing up my previous post for people like you that thought it was a touch of sarcasm
:) [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Loxam
Lite
18:24 3/2/2005
totally agree with sunman on this one - the way to catch a cheat is to have an ex? cheat on board. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
tiz
18:35 3/2/2005
Ahhh right, sorry judging by other replies ive seen by yourself i thought you where shooting geo down. Fair enough. The idea itself is great, whether you have the influence/authority to incorporate such an idea into UK based gaming remains to be seen.

Keep that hamster on the treadmill up there and im sure you can make this work.

Genuinely hope it works out. ;)

-tiz [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Rain^
2seXeh 2perfoRm
19:17 3/2/2005
we should all play naughts an crosses
or checkers [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
g00z
quintessential
20:07 3/2/2005
daz where u bin m8 aint spoke to you for a while. Column is a great idea, but i agree it would be hard to implement; ie finding 5 unbiased admins [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
MooN81
21:06 3/2/2005
Hmmm would be great for the scene but there is just too much imatuity for it 2 be taken seriously. Every1 might not record. I dno tbh [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
MooN81
21:06 3/2/2005
*imaturity :( [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
siLki
21:14 3/2/2005
try again chump [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Anisty-
Prozac
22:34 3/2/2005
it's been done, look at #team-uk , every gaming team the uk has is in there and they work together now,

shrug.

ukterrorist was offered the oppurtunity to work with #team-uk about 6 months ago and I think it was a pity they didn't take up on it but it's about resources and time i guess. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
DiesE|
22:45 3/2/2005
i know none of these people im listing, but here goes for a wacky 'body'

Ripper (s***s and giggles)
Pyroux (see Rippers comment)
geo (previous hacker + cfg bastid)
Mangiacapra or ZaG (both been to CPL)
CSGN Stono or Obsidian (they run "best" league in country)
ESL|Mike (pushing UK cs tournaments as far as he can!) [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Anisty-
Prozac
22:45 3/2/2005
whether this can continue in scope to reach to every team in our uk community? [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Psy^
xtreme9.uk
22:59 3/2/2005
I think the main problem is that nobody will have any respect for this governing body. The majority of players don't care that much that they'd do everything through a "governing" body. They don't get paid for one. I think people are losing site of something. :) [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
mOrt
23:27 3/2/2005
mangiacapra and zag probably wudnt care

why pick geo just because he has cheated, im sure there are many more experienced cheaters out there.

Pyroux wud blatently be bias [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
DoZ
Anti-saviour of UKT
00:17 4/2/2005
There's nobody suitable to do this [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
MrLink
00:53 4/2/2005
TBH, it's been tried before, and failed miserably.

It was about 7 years ago, and most of the community just laughed and ignored them. I have to admit they became so insignificant that I cant even remember the name anymore. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
CaL
00:55 4/2/2005
anyone care to summarise? [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
tinker
03:35 4/2/2005
undone, is it a soft body - i hear u moisturise ¬_¬ could be just a wicked rumour though - who knows, im only the one to loan you a bra and straighten your hair! [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
mfig
05:45 4/2/2005
i agree with geo theres more than the beneficial factor involved with a governing body... basically yea blatantly the goods gonna outweight the disads... but yer still not gonna eradicate all of the s*** out of cs that we cant eradicate now. I dont really know much about the whole infrastructure to the anti cheats, but i think its cool how CSGN have started with their own cheat detection service, i think if more people put their minds to it we could make the number of cheat out there decrease, all teaming up as one big ass united admin squad... but who knows... getting back to the point though, i reckon a lot fo cs player would drop from the scene due to committment for one reason alone im sure there are many more.

Plus invizion - steambans is a bag of s*** dont disgrace the column by bringing it up ;)

easy [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
mfig
05:46 4/2/2005
ANDDDD i cant spell and i know it, so no flame pls. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
DoZ
Anti-saviour of UKT
06:32 4/2/2005
That's true about steambans. They are truely beyond terrible [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
mfig
08:32 4/2/2005
yah.

all i can suggest is we all download

69 - youre my angel

and its all better [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Valar`
The Anti-DoZ
08:40 4/2/2005
it's too late for an organised body to save cs, the cheaters have done the damage and it's too widespread.

without software houses changing their programming philosophy the problem which has plagued the last and current generations of games will continue into the next. simply put, the cheaters have won.

consider the position "eSports" (such a bent term) would be in if there never had been cheats. well structured and organised competitions attended by genuine fans of the game who'd practised and genuinely possessed skill. a community not overrun by paranoia and doubt with endless accusations and whines being flung from corner to corner. and i'm sure there'd be a larger collection of teams and players at the top of uk cs.

word. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Valar`
The Anti-DoZ
08:45 4/2/2005
to anyone who believes the cheats haven't won...

due to the very nature of the windows multi-tasking (LOL) environment any external software used as an anti-cheat mechanism is ultimately hackable as the calls from one program to another can be intercepted (unencrypted and reencrypted if necessary) and re-routedwith very little effort. the same can be said for "well coded modular software" based around dynamic libraries.

hence all are ultimately doomed to failure. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Lord Fondlemaid
11:55 4/2/2005
Sunman, you pretty much just described the Blueyonder admin policies & procedures. Shame the GSP went to the wall :( [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Sunman^
13:07 4/2/2005
Oh well I'll continue to try. However, looks as if I'm p***ing up against a brick wall. :( [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
nixoh
enamor
14:45 4/2/2005
I could shoot all the blue jays I wanted, if I could hit 'em. but to remember it was a sin to kill a mockingbird [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
SAmwell
15:02 4/2/2005
not stono or obsidian they are corrupt w**kers :] [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Lord Fondlemaid
16:06 4/2/2005
MrLink do you mean "The Cheat Police" ?

They were hilarious, and what's funnier is that one of it's founder members, "Tango" was subsequently caught hacking his arse off :-)

Their problem was that they set themselves up without the consultation or support of the CS community. Any such governing body which Sunman is referring to may well be viable, but it would have to be appointed by the competitive UK CS community (i.e. you lot) and supported by them. Also, all the leagues and ladders would have to endorse it, meaning that there would be real penalties for clans & players who were caught cheating - expulsion from all the leagues, generally being ostracised by the whole community.

It's an all or nothing thing, "united we stand divided we fall" etc. but if it were implemented one day it would certainly be a step towards competitive CS being less of a total joke.

L.F. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Lord Fondlemaid
16:09 4/2/2005
Actually, I suppose it might also be fair to say that if the collective social inadequates within the "cream" of UK clans actually got off their arses rather than remaining aloof in their ivory towers, they could have put their weight behind, and potentially implemented this kind of thing many years ago. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Pimpboy
feo
16:15 4/2/2005
There is no one and i mean NO ONE in this community that has the ability to be on this elected body as everyone has pre concieved notions on everyone else.The body wouldnt be able to make any decisions that would seem fair.There are many people in this comunity that certainly have the ability and intelligence to be a member but to be frank and honest they are all just as equal to the rest of many a narrowminded people.Any person you choose there will be exactly the same amount of people that like them that dont so unless you pick a group of complete unknown outsiders you have no chance of this happening without creating a farce. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Elusive
16:22 4/2/2005
I logged in so i could rate this column 1 [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
MrLink
16:25 4/2/2005
No, it was something like "OGA" (online gamers association???) they were trying to be the FA of online gaming. The problem at the time was that few people wanted it, and most saw it as just another money making scheme. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
MrLink
16:46 4/2/2005
Pimpboy, That would all depend on how it was set up. At Fondlemade said, BY games has a similar setup for their admin team, with the admins having more rules to follow than the players did and strict steps that had to be followed before cheat bans could be made.

Any public body trying to do the same thing would probably have to be more open about the reasons for ban, with evidence and discussions being made public ones a ban is enforced. So that people can see form them selves.

The current random methods of trial in public, ie HLTV's and crappy AVI's have been shown time and again to be a complete joke, and completely unfair on all parties. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Necroblob
17:48 4/2/2005
Pimpboy: you are right, however if we got a team of people from different sections of the community then at least any decision they made would be slightly fairer. that is if they could agree on one.

cs is probably too long in the tooth now - it's dying. but if it can be set up for cs, it shows a way forward for 'gaming', hopefully though i wont be a major part of it.

btw the reason no1 cares about steambans isnt coz its a bad idea in theory, just the admins have no authority with the major community and are generally very average in skill.. so they ban people unfairly.

a few names..

geo (knowledge + diff part of community)
stono (runs the most effective league in UK)
DK (another section of the community *wry smile*)
a Choke member (any who will be active enough to play the game)
Porter (irish minority)
ESL|Mike (ambition)
ctx|m0rf (from the 'new' highskilled community)
c4u|KritikaL (ex-cheat, different if unpopular side of the community)
ripper (haha)
representatives from ED + CB
representatives from top3 uk teams (4K, PCG, Landed) if possible

quite a few names, not sure if ne of them r feasible or whether im even correct.

gd luck if u do anything [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
tanjo
18:38 4/2/2005
Wow , geo cheated so he must be an expert. Same with cai and hsm in that one thebog match.

Odd no one has mentioned that jools character who now does stuff with iseries/multiplay should people be desperate enough to have an insider from the world of cheatage. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
DoZ
Anti-saviour of UKT
19:19 4/2/2005
b0sH - he's a decent player I guess who can give a good perspective
trippz - he's an even semier decenter playerer who can give an alternative perspective!!!!
myers - because he likes to organise
bigbird - let's face it lads, he knows people who can walk all over geo in terms of cfg/cheats

Nobody else should get a look in!

[Edited by DoZ at 19:31 4/2/2005] [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
DoZ
Anti-saviour of UKT
19:20 4/2/2005
Oh, and LiamC because he's just raw, unadulterated talent... [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Lord Fondlemaid
20:01 4/2/2005
Add me for the savage loathing I hold for most of you, as a sure fire way of preventing the charateristic fan-boi toadyism which festoons the entire pox ridden UK CS tosser community. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Pimpboy
feo
20:39 4/2/2005
getting b0sh and trippz in a same channel on irc would be challenge enough doz :) [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
kirdi
Last Chance
00:21 5/2/2005
Sounds good :) [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
fsk
twisted Reality
00:34 5/2/2005
steambans failed cos its run by people who have probabaly only played the game since cs 5.1 or woteva.

CS has been dying for 2 years now apparently, stop starting your arguments with that to try and make out u really dont love it as much as u do.

If you think someone is cheating finish the map and leave, just like Landed did and have people judge em from demos etc, or wait till they get on lan and completely tear em a new arsehole, which at a guess is what Landed r doing.

tanjo: did or does that joolz guy actually play much cs? [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Crappy
Super Breasts
02:10 5/2/2005
Ed,
Joolz was a cs admin at the last multiplay lan. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
DoZ
Anti-saviour of UKT
02:28 5/2/2005
That doesn't answer the question! ;-) [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
hayze
05:08 5/2/2005
awful c0lumnmnmnmn [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
fsk
twisted Reality
06:54 5/2/2005
that really means nothing considering most cs admins at multiplay cannot play cs for s***. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Lord Fondlemaid
11:24 5/2/2005
Joolz is a f*cking bellend of the highest order. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Necroblob
11:41 5/2/2005
DoZ haha

fsk im quite happy to say cs is dying and back it up as some things HAVE changed in 2 years to make me think so..

simply, on a personal level the game has died for me coz i dont like 1.6 much, particularly a few pointless changes valve have made.

on top of that hl2 and cs:s have been released, the CPL will be using cs:s in the future, not cs1.6 and even now the community is beginning to split between those playing the new and old game.

for me, cs isnt what it used to be, but i'll admit its still alot better than most of the games on the market.... if i loved it as much as u think i do, then i might actually spend time playing it

on a sidenote AG is a much more fun game, however crap i am at it [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
lukuS
11:57 5/2/2005
Sorry for the retarded question, but what is AG? [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
MonkH
15:10 5/2/2005
dont think it would work because uk scene is split in to many places and some lower skilled teams (as low as ed div 3) wouldnt recognise the body [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Mango
16:47 5/2/2005
I'm assuming it's Adrenaline Gamer, lukuS. Though, for all I know it could be African Goat-Herder. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Seaweed
18:34 5/2/2005
liveforspeed > cs :) [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
fsk
twisted Reality
02:43 6/2/2005
all I've heard since about version 1.0 is that "cs is dying" 4 years on its still goin :P [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Del`
Sniper's Alley
18:52 6/2/2005
For sure seaweed! [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Horsefucker
18:59 6/2/2005
that you grom? [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
SCEE|Sarge
15:29 8/2/2005
no point having a governing body for a game that is only serious for maybe 50 teams on a level where they play 'properly' and even less maybe 20 or so that are actualy in contention to win prize money.

who wants a governing body for online CS, theres no point, the game is flawed, riddled with cheaters, has lost its development backing (see: CS:S).

yes its a good game, but with such a small 'professional' team base, theres no need for a governing body. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Valar`
The Anti-DoZ
23:51 8/2/2005
fair point clint, however...

there is a need for a governing body, or more properly, 'was'. unfortunately the whole things too late for cs 1.6, it's too late by a good few years in all honesty.

the only hope is for cs:source, but as thats s*** (apparently) and riddled with cheats already the chance is a slim one, yet there for the taking if someone (plural?) has the ability and knowhow.

online is the heart and soul of the game like it or not, LAN is elitist. at the end of the day it's down to the devlopment house to create a secure cheat free product, NOT the community. besides, any 3rd party anti-cheat software is liable to cracking, much as the software houses own.

commercial programmers ain't worth s*** cos they're too lazy and frankly don't give a toss. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
statix
05:05 9/2/2005
to be honest, it would be extremely hard to govern a game without any support from any other kind of official body (ok, so if you got CB, CSGN, UKCSL, ED, ESCSL (always get that one wrong!) etc. to go along with this then fine, if just one of the larger ones didn't, people are likely to just pile all to that league in fear of change (and having to pay money!)

Me personally, I think this sounds great, but I think the only way it would work properly would be if you got support from most of the major uk/euro leagues, valve and quakenet.

If players ran the risk of being removed from the community completely it would certainly put them off cheating i think. Sure, if you get caught, buy a new steam account, start again, but is it really that easy? Changing your name, pretending to be someone else, making a name for yourself again, and you'd have to forget about your existing "e-friends" due to the fact, if you speak and play with them, you WILL get found out.

Not something I'd be willing to risk. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
deathcube
suiGeneris
19:18 9/2/2005
Myles more Patrick for your Lucy says:
I AM ELIGIBLE TO CONTORTION WORD CONSTRUCT WITH SENTENCE ELABORATION CONSTRUE IN A CONCEITED DEMEANOUR BENJI????? [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Styla
Infinity-eSports
15:57 11/2/2005
haven't read the comments but.

I mean the benefits are there to be reeked

it's reeped. [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
Par
suiGeneris
02:06 13/2/2005
Reaped [ Comment: Report | IP: Logged ]
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BlondEh
anyone tried Age of Conan?
13:35 19/6/2008

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